Curse

Hanging Man · Mar 08, 2009, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightow

Maybe they just can't balance a hybrid (healer/buffer) / summoner class.

thats what I'm thinking. Its tough to make a balanced profession when other classes can do it better than the class that's supposed to.

spirit of defeat · Mar 08, 2009, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanging Man

thats what I'm thinking. Its tough to make a balanced profession when other classes can do it better than the class that's supposed to.

Rit's can do a lot of different stuff coming up with something that balance all of that is hard.
Maybe energy gain, but it will result in lots of nerfs.

But how many builds use SP skills? also very little.
Boost SP skills so we Rits want to use them.

Nightow · Mar 08, 2009, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Well, I can't say that the dev's aren't aware of the situation now...

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User_...g_power_lovein

But linsey's response leaves me less than hopeful.

Quote:

Heh thanks. I'm trying to keep up with my wiki and I'm really strict with myself about reading all of a discussion before responding (usually reading it a couple times by the time I respond), but man I do not look forward to reading this lol. You won't mind if I don't read it, do you? I'll just keep in mind that spawning power might like to get looked at. - Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpgLinsey talk 03:41, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

street peddler · Mar 08, 2009, 08:21 PM // 20:21

well if nothing happens in the april update i guess we can just consider it a lost cause.

Nightow · Mar 08, 2009, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by street peddler

well if nothing happens in the april update i guess we can just consider it a lost cause.

Maybe, maybe not. We all know the April update has been taking up a lot of Anet's time and with less than a month left to go, I'd think what ever they've had planned for this update is (probably) set in stone by this point. If I was the optimistic type, I'd be looking at may's update. Until April/May, looks like it might be a nice time to branch out from GW.

One thing to add is that if you really want to get something done, you've got to keep pressing the devs. (In a nice way, of course

)

Dr.Jones · Mar 09, 2009, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightow

Well, I can't say that the dev's aren't aware of the situation now...

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User_...g_power_lovein

But linsey's response leaves me less than hopeful.

well if you look at that topic she is right to be wary of it. i mean its walls and walls of text.

Nightow · Mar 09, 2009, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Jones

well if you look at that topic she is right to be wary of it. i mean its walls and walls of text.

People have talked about adjusting Spawning Power for how long now? I think players have been patient enough with this issue and it was only a matter of time for one of the devs to get a load of it. It's not to say that Linsey isn't one of my favorite devs but it had to be one of them to get the wall of text.

street peddler · Mar 09, 2009, 05:12 AM // 05:12

well at least its a huge debate with some intelligent discussion and not just some guy going "plz buf spwning my spirts aways die". hopefully they take it seriously and dont just brush it off..

spirit of defeat · Mar 09, 2009, 11:12 AM // 11:12

An idea to change SP skills to make SP useful without changing the inheritet effect.
[Renewing Memories]Make it last longer, to keep it up you need 15 SP make it 25 seconds @ 12 SP
[Ghostly Haste]Same as above.
[Attuned Was Songkai]To keep this up you need an extra skill, so make it last 60 sec. Maybe change the en cost to 15 for balance issues.
[Empowerment]Half recharge to 15 sec and cast time to 2 sec. To increase "mobility" of player.
[Doom]Change to 5 energy. Or for each binding ritual on skill bar.
[Spirit Channeling]change health degen to -2, remove health gain at the end and change recharge to 15-20 sec?
[Weapon of Renewal]Change it too something, I know it's not intended to be used with [[Spirit's strength].
[Rupture Soul]increase range to in the area of maybe earshot.
[Spirit to Flesh]increase range to in the area of maybe earshot, change cost to 5en

infamous16 · Mar 09, 2009, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Heh thanks. I'm trying to keep up with my wiki and I'm really strict with myself about reading all of a discussion before responding (usually reading it a couple times by the time I respond), but man I do not look forward to reading this lol. You won't mind if I don't read it, do you? I'll just keep in mind that spawning power might like to get looked at. - Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpgLinsey talk 03:41, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I do mind.

Sweet Mystery · Mar 09, 2009, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Well your one of the miniscule masses Infamous16 that may think a wholescale revamp to add 1% armor pen to spawning power is worth it.

I'd prefer Anets attention focused where it is and where it's needed, not on some minor un-needed change to SP.

If Anet look at I am sure they will look long and hard...

street peddler · Mar 09, 2009, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweet Mystery

Well your one of the miniscule masses Infamous16 that may think a wholescale revamp to add 1% armor pen to spawning power is worth it.

I'd prefer Anets attention focused where it is and where it's needed, not on some minor un-needed change to SP.

If Anet look at I am sure they will look long and hard...

nobody agrees with the stupid armor penetration thing. this thread is just being used as discussion for different spawning power ideas.

and yes spawning power does need a change.

draxynnic · Mar 10, 2009, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lourens

Ritualist are summoners they summon spirits and healing is just something they can do to I mean Paragons and Dervishes can Heal to but are they good at it? NO... so just leave the rit healing alone and focus on the supportive spirits weapons spells offensive spirits they all benefit greatly from spawning power as they should be, I mean restoration is like inspiration for mesmers you use them next to your main attribute (domination,communing,illusion,channeling) And I mean a N/Rt can never be a better healer then a Monk but a Rt/Mo with some hex removal can there are lots of good secondaries for ritualists that makes them shine

Actually, the ritualist was intended to act as a possible substitute for the Monk, both for healing and protection. I expect part of the inspiration for making the class came from the observation that 8-person groups almost invariably had two Monks in them, so when they went to eight professions they made one a Monk substitute.

Anyway, that's their intended role. Summoning spirits happens to be part of how they do it. They can use their powers offensively as well, of course, but so can a Monk with a little bit of Smiting (although, to be fair, the Rit is a little more offensively-oriented in general). This is part of the reason why Ritualist heals have been progressively buffed since Ritualists were introduced - they were initially 'priced' similar to Monk heals, but then ANet realised they were hurting due to lack of DF and improved the base skills to compensate instead of looking at the effect of the Ritualist primary... and this is why N/Rts are so powerful today. (And for the record, a Rit can sub in for a Monk in many areas and do the job. Human Monks tend to be preferred for a number of reasons that I'm not going to go into, but a Ritualist CAN do the job. And as for N/Rts, we all know of the power of Sabway...)

While going slightly off-topic, the healing of the Paragon and Dervish does seem to geared towards 'assisting' the primary healers rather than acting as one... but the imbagon certainly seems to perform well occupying one of the backline slots, and I have heard of specialised Dervishes doing a credible job of relieving pressure.

Nightow · Mar 10, 2009, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Actually, the ritualist was intended to act as a possible substitute for the Monk, both for healing and protection. I expect part of the inspiration for making the class came from the observation that 8-person groups almost invariably had two Monks in them, so when they went to eight professions they made one a Monk substitute.

Anyway, that's their intended role. Summoning spirits happens to be part of how they do it. They can use their powers offensively as well, of course, but so can a Monk with a little bit of Smiting (although, to be fair, the Rit is a little more offensively-oriented in general). This is part of the reason why Ritualist heals have been progressively buffed since Ritualists were introduced - they were initially 'priced' similar to Monk heals, but then ANet realised they were hurting due to lack of DF and improved the base skills to compensate instead of looking at the effect of the Ritualist primary... and this is why N/Rts are so powerful today. (And for the record, a Rit can sub in for a Monk in many areas and do the job. Human Monks tend to be preferred for a number of reasons that I'm not going to go into, but a Ritualist CAN do the job. And as for N/Rts, we all know of the power of Sabway...)

While going slightly off-topic, the healing of the Paragon and Dervish does seem to geared towards 'assisting' the primary healers rather than acting as one... but the imbagon certainly seems to perform well occupying one of the backline slots, and I have heard of specialised Dervishes doing a credible job of relieving pressure.

I've heard about how Rits were orig. supposed to backline with monks but if i recall correctly, people started to complain of very long PvP matches. When Anet saw this, they took the protection aspect of the rit out of favor. (outside of WoW) back when this first happened, some of us understood anet's reasoning and (begrudgingly) accepted loosing that aspect of the profession.

Now with us coming up on the one year anniversary since Arenanet has used the ability to split skills into PvE and PvP variations, there is very little reason (if any at all) to keep this aspect of the ritualist out of the game.

Before I forget, Alaris on the GWWiki posted a semi-decent summary of the discussion on Linsey's talk page thus far.

Quote:

* Spawning power needs a buff because (1) the primary is pretty useless to anything but Rt, and (2) it's pretty useless to Rts as well.
* Rit spike needed a nerf, but nerf went too far.
* N/Rt is the main way Rt skills are used (N/Rt healing). I'd also add Rt/N as a variant for minions.
* See also pages by Lancy/Falconeye, Yullive..and Cornflakeboy^^ for suggestions
* Perhaps better survival would be good (see monk & derv primaries).
* Spirits, especially communing, are too costly in time & energy to be worthwhile. Perhaps faster summon speed? They also don't last long enough to be worth it.
* Some back & forth ranting which is better ignored.
* Spawning primary is less universal than many other primaries.
* Spawning needs something to make it more useful for PvP, where movement is key.
* Some comments about "Save Yourselves" being OP'ed.
* Some say that even though Spawning may be a weak primary, the Rt is quite viable especially for PvE.
* Item spells involve a trade-off, and good players use that well. So it's ok for you to lose your weapon bonuses when you hold an item.
* Long discussion of warrior and paragon skills, mostly with regards to block and party-wide support mechanics - compared to spammable prot weapon spells.
* Linsey complaining about wall of text.

I think that sums it up. -- Alaris_sig Alaris 14:27, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Draxynnic clarified a bit of the discussion for Alaris later on.

Quote:

Good summary, Alaris. One clarification I'd make is that the Save Yourselves! comparison is typically made with respect to the old Ritlord build rather than weapon spells - a lot of Rit players feel that if SY! is acceptable in PvE, than the old Ritlord build should also be returned to something close to its original functionality in PvE. It's certainly true that Rits function well despite the lackluster shape of Spawning Power - in fact, I think some buffs that have been made to individual skills seem to have been made to compensate for the lackluster effect of the primary attribute (healing spells especially, when compared to Monks who have Divine Favour). The problem is that this just provides more encouragement to dump Spawning Power entirely as it is largely unimportant to a Ritualist's effectiveness, possibly replacing it with a more applicable primary such as Soul Reaping. Draxynnic 01:05, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

draxynnic · Mar 11, 2009, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightow

I've heard about how Rits were orig. supposed to backline with monks but if i recall correctly, people started to complain of very long PvP matches. When Anet saw this, they took the protection aspect of the rit out of favor. (outside of WoW) back when this first happened, some of us understood anet's reasoning and (begrudgingly) accepted loosing that aspect of the profession.

Pretty much. To compensate, however, they have made huge buffs to the direct healing available to the Ritualist - on release, the typical Ritualist healing spell was roughly on par with a Monk healing spell without DF, and now they make some Monks jealous even with DF in the mix. As has already been observed multiple times, though, the opportunity for a backline role this represents has been taken by Ritualist secondaries - the healing N/Rt in Sabway being the most obvious example.

Regarding the ritlord, from memory the main problem with that in PvP was that due to the long range of spirits, a ritlord could often find some out-of-the-way part of the map that was still within range of the fighting location and drop spirits in relative safety. A variant of that concern may be part of the reason we haven't seen a PvE split of the skills involved (apart from Ritual Lord itself) - the SY! Paragon or Warrior still actually has to be in the fighting, after all, while the ritlord can, in theory, stay back and drop spirits in safety (unless found be a patrol the group neglected to clear...).

infamous16 · Mar 11, 2009, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by street peddler

nobody agrees with the stupid armor penetration thing. this thread is just being used as discussion for different spawning power ideas.

and yes spawning power does need a change.

I was just kinda putting that out there as a suggestion, but other people have put forth much better ideas.

if the devs think that the spawning power right now is fine, then they need to buff spirits, make new spirits, revamp spirits, and do the same for weapon skills.

Nightow · Mar 11, 2009, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Pretty much. To compensate, however, they have made huge buffs to the direct healing available to the Ritualist - on release, the typical Ritualist healing spell was roughly on par with a Monk healing spell without DF, and now they make some Monks jealous even with DF in the mix. As has already been observed multiple times, though, the opportunity for a backline role this represents has been taken by Ritualist secondaries - the healing N/Rt in Sabway being the most obvious example.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the buffs to the resto heals occur after the buff to many healing prayer skills such as WoH? I always thought that the buff to resto was so that their numbers could compare to the post-buffed healing prayer skills and not to the lack of worthy prot skills.

Regarding the N/Rt's, I was thinking about some of the other primaries which supply energy such as mysticism and critical strikes. If you look at those two, the energy coming from those two attributes are scaled. Used normally, they do not provide an overwhelming amount of energy but usually enough for the wielder to perform well under pressure. Why not give soul reaping the same scaling method as those two attributes? It would stress more skillful use of skills and maintaining one's energy but the core mechanic would remain the same. (Essentially making one, Goliath sized attribute more back down to average)

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Regarding the ritlord, from memory the main problem with that in PvP was that due to the long range of spirits, a ritlord could often find some out-of-the-way part of the map that was still within range of the fighting location and drop spirits in relative safety. A variant of that concern may be part of the reason we haven't seen a PvE split of the skills involved (apart from Ritual Lord itself) - the SY! Paragon or Warrior still actually has to be in the fighting, after all, while the ritlord can, in theory, stay back and drop spirits in safety (unless found be a patrol the group neglected to clear...).

Ok, so would a logical answer be to reduce the area of affect that a spirit covers from roughly 2.7 Danger Zone radii to roughly 1.5 - 2.0 Danger Zone radii? This way, the player is closer to the battlefield, has a higher chance to have his spirits be hit by the other side and possibly put more active skills on their skill bar. ([Sundering [email protected]] comes to mind)

draxynnic · Mar 11, 2009, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightow

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the buffs to the resto heals occur after the buff to many healing prayer skills such as WoH? I always thought that the buff to resto was so that their numbers could compare to the post-buffed healing prayer skills and not to the lack of worthy prot skills.

I think there have been a few waves. First Ritlord got nerfed, then Ritualist direct healing effects were buffed to help them keep up with primary Monks better, then we had the general healing buffs.

(To demonstrate how much things have changed - I don't have a reference, but I vaguely remember that Spirit Light used to cost 10 energy while only healing about 80-100ish health (at typical ranges for Restoration). Mend Body and Soul originally healed for about half what it does now, from memory.)

Quote:

Regarding the N/Rt's, I was thinking about some of the other primaries which supply energy such as mysticism and critical strikes. If you look at those two, the energy coming from those two attributes are scaled. Used normally, they do not provide an overwhelming amount of energy but usually enough for the wielder to perform well under pressure. Why not give soul reaping the same scaling method as those two attributes? It would stress more skillful use of skills and maintaining one's energy but the core mechanic would remain the same. (Essentially making one, Goliath sized attribute more back down to average)

I think it's something that ANet has toyed with. One of the issues with Soul Reaping is that its effectiveness is more dependant on the environment than the player. You can get more out of Mysticism by using more enchantments, Critical Strikes by using more crit-enhancing skills, and so on, with each of these having their trade-offs but generally equally effective regardless of where you are (unless facing hard counters). Soul Reaping, however, is something that is incredibly powerful when you have a minion swarm along and it's triggering at the maximum rate, but weaker in, say, a PvP match where each death is significant.

A further consideration is that minion master builds actually do typically need that energy to function - a SR nerf would need to happen alongside reductions of costs of necromancer spells in general and minion spells in particular.

Quote:

Ok, so would a logical answer be to reduce the area of affect that a spirit covers from roughly 2.7 Danger Zone radii to roughly 1.5 - 2.0 Danger Zone radii? This way, the player is closer to the battlefield, has a higher chance to have his spirits be hit by the other side and possibly put more active skills on their skill bar. ([Sundering [email protected]] comes to mind)

That could do it. One possible concern is that it could make long-lived, long-recharge spirits less valuable by increasing the chance that the fighting will move out of range before the spirit is ready to be replaced, but this can be compensated for, especially with skills like Summon Spirits available.

Nightow · Mar 11, 2009, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

I think there have been a few waves. First Ritlord got nerfed, then Ritualist direct healing effects were buffed to help them keep up with primary Monks better, then we had the general healing buffs.

(To demonstrate how much things have changed - I don't have a reference, but I vaguely remember that Spirit Light used to cost 10 energy while only healing about 80-100ish health (at typical ranges for Restoration). Mend Body and Soul originally healed for about half what it does now, from memory.)

Heh; there's been so many changes over the years, I'm surprised anyone out there remembers anymore. You are right though, [spirit light] has been changed over the years. (7% additional health sac with a slightly more powerful heal)
http://guildwars.wikia.com/index.php...t&oldid=127429

Similar changes with [mend body and soul].
http://guildwars.wikia.com/index.php...l&oldid=127293

Healing powers aside, we all know the real sweet spot with backline support professions is the prot. You could make red bars go up all you want but to be efficient, you have to prevent the damage. Isn't efficiency something a lot of gamers (among other people) strive for in general? If Anet truly intends to make it possible for a rit to efficiently backline, we need the ability to prot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

I think it's something that ANet has toyed with. One of the issues with Soul Reaping is that its effectiveness is more dependant on the environment than the player. You can get more out of Mysticism by using more enchantments, Critical Strikes by using more crit-enhancing skills, and so on, with each of these having their trade-offs but generally equally effective regardless of where you are (unless facing hard counters). Soul Reaping, however, is something that is incredibly powerful when you have a minion swarm along and it's triggering at the maximum rate, but weaker in, say, a PvP match where each death is significant.

A further consideration is that minion master builds actually do typically need that energy to function - a SR nerf would need to happen alongside reductions of costs of necromancer spells in general and minion spells in particular.

Ok, so how often do we see N/Rt's with minions and more than 1 actual ritualist skill? Only one I've seen is one of the discordway healers, that's it. If MM's need the energy then go ahead and lower the costs of animation skills but make it so that only the master receives energy from his dying minions.

I still believe that if SR was scaled in a similar fashion as mysticism is (1 Energy for every 3 ranks), it would tone down the excessive spamming that the current version allows and yet (with SoLS or other means) you could still use some key necromancer skills such as [spiteful spirit] and [Insidious Parasite].

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

That could do it. One possible concern is that it could make long-lived, long-recharge spirits less valuable by increasing the chance that the fighting will move out of range before the spirit is ready to be replaced, but this can be compensated for, especially with skills like Summon Spirits available.

Agreed. The summoner would have to either rely on SS or Ritual Lord while moving from battle to battle. If Anet wanted to, they could actually reduce the life span on some of the rituals. As it is, a Spirit of Shelter lives naturally for up to 62 seconds. I'm sure most players will agree that a majority of battles last for far less time.

StormX · Mar 11, 2009, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Personally, I'd like to see Spawning Power give a buff to the healing of Ritualist healing spells, and a to the damage of Ritualist damaging skills. That way, they could nerf secondary Rits and buff primary Rits simultaneously.

I support this idea. (although armor penetration would be awesome =P)

Just in case anet actually bothers to read this, I have a few suggestions regarding the rit class in general:

1. Instead of buffing the amount of healing, reduce the casting time of restoration spells. The 3/4 to 1 sec cast time makes it very difficult to catch spikes.

2. Fewer conditional skills please! The reliance on conditions greatly hampers mobility and takes up extra skill slots. I don't think any other class has this many conditional skills (meaning: all that "if you are carrying an item/near a spirit/under an enchantment" kind of crap)

3. For item spells not to make you lose the benefits from your equipped weapon. (Eg: +30 hp, +12e, skill recharge etc) Otherwise, there needs to be some way to compensate for the loss of that 12 energy...I find it really annoying when item spells make your energy < 0.